Understanding the Taxes You Pay: From Basics to Advanced Strategies

Taxes are one of the most misunderstood parts of a financial plan—and one of the most consequential. Today we’re going to strip away the complexity, tell you exactly what you’re paying and why, and talk honestly about what you can do about it. We'll discuss the creation of the income tax system and what specific taxes you pay. You'll learn about the 3 bucket savings strategy and how we look at your situation—both historically and toward the future—to optimize your plan.

• Transcript

  Hey, good morning, everyone, or good afternoon, depending on where you're from. We got a few more people trickling in, so we'll give them just a few more seconds before we get rolling. Finally, some nice weather here in Michigan. So this is the 2026 tax planning webinar. Some of this stuff we've touched on in the past, but there's a lot of nuances and changes, as there always is. This will be recorded. If you or a friend or family would like a copy of it, just let us know. We'll probably also post this on our site and on YouTube eventually, to get the word out. So with that, we'll go ahead and get started. I do want to just mention a couple housekeeping items. If you have any questions, you can just click the raise your hand. There's also the chat box, and Tara is moderating as always, for tech support and things, so she'll remind me if we need to update that. So we're going to go ahead and get rolling. And hopefully you're enjoying your lunch, and we'll make sure we get back to your lunch soon enough. Okay. Everybody's favorite topic right after a holiday. Excuse me. Let's talk about taxes, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I thought it might be nice to go over a little bit of the history of the US tax. It might make you upset. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about brackets and actual rates, the full tax picture, the different taxes you pay in addition to income, right? You've got the FICA and capital gains and so much more. The three buckets, which is a scaled down version. There are more tax buckets, but it's just to give you a working knowledge of the basics, and then we'll talk more about it. And then hybrids, and I know we have some real estate folks on this call, so you’ll be pretty familiar with those. And then just putting it all together. The biggest thing with any of this stuff is having a plan and not just going about this, just wandering through. Right? Have a plan so you kind of have an idea of what you're paying now and what you might pay in the future, so you don't have a nasty surprise. Okay. History of income tax. If you remember, America was founded on the concept of no taxation without representation, right? We didn't really care for King George's policies, so a couple folks decided to come on over and do away with that. And that stayed away until about the Civil War. Okay? The Civil War, Congress levied the first tax, income tax that is, to fund the war, which was needed, and they repealed it about 11 years later in 1872. And then we kind of went without a federal income tax for about 20-some years. It had been proposed a few times, but the US Supreme Court called it unconstitutional. My how the times have changed, and they struck it down, and so there really wasn't one until 1913, which was the 16th Amendment, and this is where Congress gained clear authority to tax income. This modern tax system is born, initially though, affecting fewer than 1% of Americans. So very few people paid taxes initially, but it was the foot in the door. We got into World War II. Wars are very expensive, and the modern system expands. So withholdings began in 1943, the standard deduction arrives in 1944, and it is now sort of part of the mass market. So it's just really interesting. Really it's been less than 100 years that we've had this modern taxation system. And as you can all imagine and see, the government is no stranger to spending money when they get it, and they don't like giving it back. Now, having said that, and going from it affecting less than 1% of the population to a significant amount of the population, let's look at brackets, and some of you've seen this before if you've been into our office, but I think this is really neat. Some of you lived through this. I was born in 1980, and I'm 45. I know some of you on this call were born a little earlier than that, maybe some a little later. But let's just look at this for a second. So the top rate in 1980 was 70%. Now, these income numbers are not adjusted for inflation, so that's probably a million dollars a year now. But even if you go to the $45,000 number, that might be equivalent of $90,000, maybe a little more now. That's not that much income, and that marginal rate was 49% to 54%. That's quite a bit of money. By the way, that's just for federal income tax. They had 16 brackets, and it really got up there quickly. And then kind of came Reaganomics and a lot of tax cuts and more tax cuts, and they've really gone down up through into the early 2000s to get to roughly some variation of where we are today. So we went from 16 brackets to seven. So you'll note there's a lot more room in each bracket before you jump up to the next one. The biggest thing is the highest bracket is just over half of what it used to be, and that's a significant difference. And now, nobody wants to pay 37%, but it is historically much lower. The bulk of Americans are in this 12% to 22%. Actually, a bulk of Americans don't pay any income taxes, but for the middle class, mass affluent type folks, 12% to 22%. And you've got some pretty good wiggle room. And even if you jump 22%, 24%'s not too bad. That's a pretty big jump, but you don't see as many jumps. SoWhat we didn't put on here was the US deficit, and if I were to overlay that, you would see it just going up. So tax rates have generally gone down, or for people in low brackets, they've stayed low and gotten lower, and the deficit's gone up. So that's not a surefire way to say they're going to go up in the future, but it's really hard to imagine them going down. Okay? Now, income taxes, federal income tax is just one piece. So we're going to look at that and see all the other lovely taxes we're paying. And in a minute, we'll talk about the types of income. But let's start with good old state income tax. So Michigan is a flat 4.25%. Now, good news for retirees, a lot of your income, so Social Security is not taxed at the state level, and a lot of your income is not going to be subject for state income tax. If you're married jointly, you have exemptions already, and you also have an additional 40,000 or a pretty big number on IRAs, pensions, et cetera. So that has gotten a lot better. If you're a working stiff like me and a lot of us, you're paying that 4.25% all the way through. Now, we're a little fortunate in Michigan because that's our number. I know we've got people from different states on this webinar. Indiana, I think, starts at around 3. I believe Wisconsin starts around 3, and then they ramp up to around 5. And most states are in there, but you've got some states that are quite expensive. California, they win. They go all the way up to 12.3%. New York is quite high. So when you hear these stories about Elon Musk and Joe Rogan and other billionaires moving out of California and into a state like Texas where there is no income tax, you can see why. I think Rogan did 300 million last year. So imagine paying 12% on 300 million or zero. That's a big difference. So there are eight states, they're listed out there, Florida, Texas, Alaska, New Hampshire, Tennessee, Nevada, South Dakota, and Wyoming have no state income taxes. It is really interesting. Now, they would argue they make up for it with property tax and sales tax, but you do. You see a lot of retirees and high earners go there if they're able to, to avoid state income tax. So that is one potential planning opportunity is if you have the means and the wherewithal and you want to relocate, you can relocate to a lower income tax state in retirement or other. However, you need to look at all the other taxes to make sure you're not just horse trading, and we'll get to some of those. Again, I'm going to pause here just to say, if there are questions, I'll ask Tara to remind me because I can't quite see the chat bot. Okay. So get your paycheck if you're still working, and if you are really considered either a W-2, you work for a company or somebody else, or you're self-employed. So this FICA is your Medicare and Social Security. So the first 6.2% up to 184,500 is split between the employer and the employee. So there's another 6.2% right out of the gate. Also, if you put into a 401 pre-tax, while it does avoid federal and state income tax, it does not avoid Social Security and Medicare tax. So you're going to pay that 6.2% all the way up to 184,500. For those of you that make more than that, you may notice your paychecks get a little bigger after that because after you hit that 184,500, they stop taking out for Social Security. And also you can't get-- It's a limited benefit. So if you're self-employed, that's 12.4%. Once you're over the 184,500, it's a bonus. You're getting more of that money. Medicare is 1.45% each, and there is no cap on that. In fact, once you get over the threshold, it may be listed at a few pages, but I believe it's around 250-ish. They actually charge you 2.35% for Medicare. So on your first, call it $184,000, you're looking at another 7.65%. If you're an employee, you're looking at another 15%. So we got 15% here, we got four and a quarter, now we're at 19. Now, if you're lucky enough to be in a 22% federal, you're over 40%, which is not fun. That's part of where they get you. Now, there's an argument, I don't think it's a great argument, that you will get to collect Medicare, which is true. If you live in 65, you can enroll, and you will get Social Security benefits. I'm not going to get into the math behind Social Security benefits right now. You will get money from Social Security. You can draw as early as age 62. Is it a great return? Probably not, at least mathematically, but that is the plan we have, and you unfortunately cannot opt-out, at least as of today. Okay? What other taxes? We've got capital gains tax. Now, this is fairly straightforward, but it has a couple nuances, and it's really important you understand them because you can save yourself a lot of headache here just by being a little patient. And what I mean by that. So there are short-term gains, and that would be considered something that you owned less than a year. The definition is 12 months or less, or less than 12 months. So let's think about if you bought a piece of property, like real estate, or you bought a stock, or even a bond, or a mutual fund, and it increased in value, and you sold it inside of 12 months, you would have what's known as a short-term gain. Now, first thing is, that's good news. You made money. But that gain then is going to be taxed as ordinary income. So let's say you're in a 32% federal bracket. You paid $50,000 for a mutual fund, and it had a great year, and you sold it 11 months later for 100,000. You got $50,000 that is taxed as ordinary income. Now, you don't pay FICA on that because it's not an earned income, but you will pay the federal and applicable state income tax at your rate.What if you have the same investment, but you hold it longer than 12 months? And again, not everything qualifies, but certain things like stocks, bonds, mutual funds, ETFs, real estate, they qualify. CDs do not qualify. Now it's considered a long-term gain. And so if you sell it after 12 months, you have a long-term capital gains rate, which for most of our clients, and if you're up to about 550,000, 600,000, is 15%. The maximum rate is 20%. So if you have somebody who, or you yourself, are in the highest possible tax bracket, and when it comes to investing, you can significantly reduce that bracket just by holding your investments over a year, selling after a year. And that also applies to qualified dividends to a specific type of dividend. So capital gains tax, again, it's still out there. One of the nice things about capital gains tax is you do have some control over it. So to give you an example, if you put money in a CD, you're going to get interest on that CD, daily, monthly, whatever, and you may just renew that CD, you may not do anything. It might be a three-year CD, so it sits there. You didn't use the money, but you're going to get a 1099 at the end of the year, and you are going to have tax due on that interest no matter what. If you buy stocks, bonds, real estate, mutual funds, et cetera, and you don't sell them, you may have a little bit of taxable dividend, but for the most part, you're going to have very little capital gains tax. You can kind of control that by deciding when you sell. And so that's just one of the levers you can pull. We'll talk more about that later. And then we have other taxes. So we have a sales tax. Most states have a sales tax. I don't know what all the rates are. In Michigan, it's 6%. A lot of the states with no income tax have a higher sales tax. They generally make a lot of money off travel and tourism. So this is more of a spend tax. You're paying more on what you buy versus what you earn, but it's taxed just the same. We have property tax. Now, there's lots of pending legislation in Florida and even in Michigan about possibly repealing that. But at this point in time, if you own property, every year, you get an assessment, and as your value goes up, typically your property tax goes up. And for some people, it can be quite significant. And a lot of cities have city income taxes, and this can also apply-- We have a lot of clients who live in Kalamazoo and work in Grand Rapids. Well, guess what? They work in Grand Rapids. Grand Rapids has a city tax. Now often this is only a half percent or a percent, but it all adds up. So you start adding all this stuff up, it can be significant. Just pausing for a second. Okay, going to take a jump here for a second. It's a little off the main tax theme, but I think this is very important. If you're under 65-- Let me back up. If you're 60 or older, you probably want to pay attention to this. If you're under 60, you can ignore this for a minute, but you want to be aware. Medicare Part B, which typically people enroll in at 65, right now has a monthly premium of about $203. There's also another small premium for the prescription drug card. What a lot of people don't realize is that is based on you making under these thresholds. What a lot of folks don't realize is you can, and often will be, charged more for your Medicare premiums if you had a higher income. And what's a real dirty little secret about this is this is based on your income two years prior. So as you're planning for Medicare, you want to make sure you're working with your financial planner and being very careful. You might have a year where you made 750 or more and you're going to pay a $487 surcharge per person, so $689 a month for Medicare, and maybe you had this in 2025, and you retired in 2026. Well, lo and behold, 2027 comes, and your Medicare premium, they're going to look at your tax return, and it's going to go through the roof. There are ways to appeal this, but I just am mentioning this now because a lot of people are enrolling in Medicare this fall or getting more familiar with Medicare, and this is one of those things you just want to be aware of. If you're a ways from Medicare, you got time, this could change, but I doubt they're going to give you more money back. Okay, back to the main theme of taxes. So we talked about all the different taxes you can pay. Now we're going to talk about kind of different buckets, I'm just noticing these are like paint buckets, and how they may be taxed. So this first bucket on the left, we're going to call taxable now. Now, I've got another version of this that has 15 buckets. This is the more simplified version that you can draw on a napkin and talk about at parties. So investments in this bucket are taxed annually. Whatever interest or dividends or income you receive is going to be taxed. You're going to get a 1099 from some institution. 1099 interest is saying, "Hey, you made interest. You made money. You owe." Common examples, checking, not much these days, savings, CDs, real estate. Now, real estate is a hybrid we'll talk about, but if you own real estate and you have rental income, once you deduct the expenses and things, that rental income is taxable now. You do get to avoid the FICA, though, so it's a little more efficient. Earned income from a regular job is the most heavily taxed income there is because you get to pay everythingSo for this reason, Taxable Now, we'll often tell people, "Hey, you can have some money in here. It's great for emergencies but you don't want to be overloaded with cash or CDs or things that if it's long-term money and it's sitting here, you could be cutting the government in for 40% a year of your interest just by where you're parking the money." Okay? The next bucket, and we're going to call taxable later. So just like the name says, it's not taxable right now, but it will be taxable later. 100% of it is taxable later. Okay? Now, most of these, you are going to either contribute on a pre-tax basis or you're going to get a deduction for putting the money in. So this would be something like a traditional IRA, a 401 , a 403 , a 457, a deferred comp, a SEP IRA, a simple IRA. Anything with the words IRA in it or K at the end, you're putting it in with pre-tax dollars and you do not get taxed on it until you take the money out. So if we compare this to the first bucket where you have to pay tax every year, you can get a lot more growth and compounding if the IRS isn't putting their hands in their cookie jar every year and they let it grow and grow and grow. However, when you take the money out, generally, you can't take it till 59 and a half without a penalty. After 59 and a half, no matter what you take it for, the entire amount is taxable. And I'll show you an example in a minute, but let's just say you deferred half a million dollars. You save taxes on that half a million dollars, that's great. It grows to $2 million. Now you're going to pay taxes on the entire $2 million, or your spouse will, or your children will. So you do not avoid taxes. By the way, the 401 got really popular in the '80s. If I go back, yeah, if you could defer taxes at 50% and then be in a 24% rate today, which is what a lot of people are, it's a great plan. We are in a very different landscape right now. You could definitely argue that you are in a lower rate now than you may be in the future, or at least in many cases. Third bucket, and this is our favorite, it's taxable never. Okay? So this is money that once it goes in, if it's used correctly, you never pay taxes on the money again. I should make a point, though, that one difference in these two buckets is this often gets a deduction on the way in, this does not. So to say taxable never, it is after-tax money that's going in. So you've paid tax on your initial investment, but you never pay tax again. Okay, so examples of this is anything with the word Roth in the name. Roth IRA, Roth 401 , Roth SEP, Roth Simple, et cetera. Roth 403 . Almost all employer plans now are having a Roth version of that account. Now, for those of you that are somewhat familiar, there are income limits on Roth IRAs. So typically, if you're making over, it's around 200K, you can't fund them. There are no income limits for Roth 401 s, Roth 403 s, basically employer-sponsored plans. You can choose to put money in them up to the limit. I don't know why it's that way, just another great government rule. Other examples, municipal bonds. Now, municipal bonds have typically federally tax-free interest. If it's a state municipal bond, it could be federally and state tax-free. Health savings accounts, probably one of the best accounts you can do for taxes. The only account that really is the best of taxable later and taxable never because you get a deduction on the way in, it grows tax-deferred, and if it's used for a qualified expense, any health expense premium, et cetera, it's never taxed. So that is, I think, a very underutilized program. I think it's $8,650 a year for a joint couple you can do. You do have to have a high deductible health plan, so that is a rule. But if you haven't looked at a health savings, not only for money to spend now, but you could build up six figures plus in that and use it to help offset retirement costs down the road, healthcare costs, tax-free. So why not? Another big thing with taxable never, particularly around Roths, are there are no required minimum distributions. So for many of you, when you hit 72 or 74, your advisor or maybe the brokerage or the government's going to come remind you, "Hey, you haven't paid taxes on this money. You have to start taking it out and you have to start paying tax." And you might say, "Well, I don't need it." They go, "I don't care. You got to take it out, pay the tax, and you can reinvest it, but you got to pay the piper." Right? And those RMDs would apply to your children. What's really cool about Roth, there's no RMD for you and there's no RMD for your spouse or your children. They just have to take the money out after 10 years of your death, but it's all tax-free. So I'll show you an example of that. Last thing I'll just touch on, well, two things. 529's very popular college savings plan. Works like a Roth, but for college. So it goes in after-tax, grows tax-deferred, comes out tax-free if it's used for college. You can also use it for private education and some trade school and things like that. So that's a nice thing for kids. And then cash value life insurance. We're not going to get into that much today. This is touted way too much on YouTube. I own a good chunk of it. It also can work like a Roth, but you need to make sure you have the timeline and that it's funded correctly. There's a lot of costs up front to get into it. It can work just great, but do your homework on it. And typically, we will use other vehicles first. Okay. Any questions so far, Tara?Nope, we're just rolling along. All right. Okay, so here's an example. And most of our clients are older than this, and maybe I should have done a 55-year-old, but this is a great one if any of you have kids that are young adults that you want to talk to about this. So we're looking at a 35-year-old that puts in $20,000 a year. We're looking on the left-hand side, $20,000 a year for five years, so that's $100,000 pre-tax. Okay? We're going to assume in this example they're in a 24% tax bracket. All right. So if they put in $100,000, they save $24,000 on taxes. That's 24% of $100,000. Right? If it grows at 7.2%, which is very reasonable, to age 65, that means it doubles every 10 years, so it would have doubled three times, 100 to 200, 200 to 400, 400 to 800. At 65, if they then took it out, assuming they're still in a 24% tax bracket, it would cost them $192,000 in taxes, which is eight times what they saved by putting it in. 192 is eight times $24,000. If they miraculously were somehow in a lower tax bracket, half, they're still going to pay $96,000 because they're paying taxes on the harvest, not the seed. That's still 4X. And if tax rates rise, now it's nearly 10 times. So the problem with this traditional tax later money is you don't know what the rate's going to be. The government can make the rate whatever they decide. And if you're successful and you have a healthy income, and you have those RMDs, you're kind of going to be stuck. Unless you give it all away to charity, you're going to be stuck taking it out, paying a high tax. Same 35-year-old, $100,000 a year. Now, I've noted in the parentheses there, they need $124 pre-tax to equate to $100K. So that's one nuance we want to make sure. Saving $100K pre-tax is going to feel like a lot. Saving $100K after tax, it's really like $124. So you pay the tax up front, you're going to pay the $24K. Same growth rate. Okay? Look at the values at age 75, 85 comparatively. You don't have to take those RMDs, so $1.6 and $3.2 million, because you don't have to take out. If you don't ever touch it and the kids inherit it 10 years after death, assuming you die at 85, you've got $6.4 million tax-free on $100,000 invested. There are no required minimum distributions. Now, if you started taking withdrawals at 65 and using it for retirement, of course, you're not leaving that amount of money. But the point is, that money is yours to use as you like, and you don't have Uncle Sam getting in there. I would rather pay taxes on the seed than the gain. There are, of course, exceptions. There are some people that are in lower brackets, and there are some people who are in their mid-60s. They're only going to work a few more years, and they're in a very high tax bracket now, so it makes a ton of sense to pump it into pre-tax. Okay. Going backwards a little bit, some of these hybrid buckets. So we talked about this, rental real estate, right? Rental income above expenses is ordinary income, not FICA. The appreciation is tax-deferred till you sell. And a lot of you are probably familiar with what's called the stepped-up basis. So we use an example of Mom and Dad have their home. My parents built their house in 1968 or '72, and they lived there a long time. It's not a big house, but it's certainly probably quadrupled in value from what they built it for. And so if they transfer that after their death to their heirs, we're going to get a stepped-up basis, meaning whatever the value of that property is at death becomes our basis, and we can sell it then for no taxable gain. So some huge advantage of real estate there. Brokerage accounts, non-IRA. We talked about IRAs and all those rules. Brokerage accounts are something like stocks, bonds, mutual funds that are not held inside an IRA. It's called a non-qualified or a brokerage account. So your dividends and your interest are taxes you earned, but your unrealized gains on those appreciation are not taxed until you sell. And if you never sell, your heirs get a stepped-up in basis. So again, maybe you invested a half million dollars and you just held that for 30 years and it doubled a few times, and now it's worth $2 million and you don't use it, and your kids inherit $2 million, they get a stepped-up basis and they can sell that tomorrow tax-free, or they could continue to grow it. And then for a lot of our clients, once we get into a little higher income, we can do tax loss harvesting, which is you're strategically selling certain positions that have appreciated or declined, and you're offsetting them with losses so you can capture a tax write-off on paper and still be making money. And this has been around a long time, but there's a lot of strategy that goes into it just to minimize the tax. There are, of course, a lot of other options, from private oil investments and other things that can get kind of crazy. But again, taxes, there's a lot of different nuances to it. Okay. So this is one of the stories just to kind of drive this point home. You've probably heard some variation of this over the years. Warren Buffett pays less in taxes than his secretary. That is not true. He does not pay fewerdollars in taxes than his secretary. Now, I would imagine, to be fair, I bet his secretary or secretaries probably make north of a half million a year. However, Buffett is probably in a lower effective rate because nearly all his income comes from long-term gains and qualified dividends, which is taxed at 20%, not ordinary income rates all the way up to 37. So his secretary, because she's a W2 employee, he or she, I should say, not only are they going to have a higher rate, they're also going to be paying those FICA taxes. Again, capital gains, dividends, you don't pay FICA. So the key here is this is not necessarily how much you make, how much you keep, and how you structure your investments and where it's held, and that's where planning makes a big difference. You can't just flip a switch today, but there are things you can do strategically. So we'll talk about a few. All right. Excuse me. So you want to look behind you, where you're at, and forward. So the first thing we always like to do is review your tax return. If you're with another advisor, and they haven't asked you for your tax return, that means they're not looking at it. And if you're not really looking at it and getting really good counsel from your CPA, and CPAs are great people, but a lot of times, their job is to file the tax return. They don't really have the time to walk you through all the nuances of it or give you strategy on how to save next year, et cetera. So you need to understand what you're paying and why. You don't want to walk into the end of the year and expect magic or worse yet, just keep paying year after year with no idea. We look at tax returns every year for all our clients, and sometimes we see $50,000 in taxable dividends, and we go, "What's the point of this?" "Ah, it's just money. It's just kind of there." Well, what if we could reduce the tax on that? "Oh, yeah, that'd be great. Can we do that?" There's lots of stuff you can get. Okay? And then we want to look forward. So this is where that Roth conversion strategy, I did a video on this a few weeks ago. It doesn't matter if you're 16 or 68, you can look at, and should look at, Roth conversions every single year. It doesn't mean it's always going to make sense, but it's one of the levers you can pull, and I said there's an income limit on contributing to a Roth. There is no income limit on a conversion. So a lot of times when we sit down with people when they first walk into the office, they might have 90% in this taxable later bucket because they kind of came through the '80s and everything was put your money pre-tax because that's the way to go. And now they've got $2 million in this pre-tax bucket and nothing over here. And so everything is taxed later. And one of the concepts then is Roth conversions, is strategically looking at that every year and how much can we convert over to Roth without blowing up their tax bracket and slowly moving that over and getting that more efficient over time. Which goes back to planning ahead, getting it from taxable later to taxable never. This could be Roth conversions. This could be strategic distributions. This could be funding after-tax accounts instead of tax-deferred accounts. There's all sorts of strategies here, but it's not just a quick flip. It's years of chipping away, chipping away, looking ahead, and when they move the cheese, you got to kind of figure, okay, where do we go? So just bringing it all together, taxes are really a big part. Now we talk about investments and fees and costs, and nobody wants to pay more than they need to, right? Oftentimes, we're trying to eke out an extra one or 2%, but taxes, it can be up to 60% when you factor it all in there. So yeah, not saying-- Fees are important. Extra one or two certainly helps, but some of the stuff you can do on taxes with good planning, you're talking 10% to 40% difference, makes a significant difference in your overall portfolio and your overall picture. Okay. Won't bore you to this, but we got a lot of sources here. Trying to put that together, he did a good job. I didn't just make this up. I probably did misquote a term or two, so seek these sites or talk to us directly for an actual reference. So next step. Most of you watching are clients already. Thank you for that. We're here for you if you have any questions on anything. If you're not and you're interested in talking, schedule a time. It's a free consultation. Also, if you've got friends or family that maybe their person isn't looking over their stuff or maybe they're confused on their taxes, we'll meet with them twice for free, and we will try to help them any way we can, whether or not they become a client. So with that, thank you for watching. We're going to open it up for questions if there are any, and then we'll let you get back to your lunch. Okay. Well, it must have been so thorough that it answered everyone's questions or everybody wants to get back to lunch. So we're going to let you guys get back to it. Thanks again for watching. Again, this will be recorded and available. Appreciate you, and have a great week. Take care.